Current Events: UK Crew how bad is the rioting in London?

Eltham is apparently standing up for themselves:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/10/eltham-riots-police-videos

Do UK police not have water cannons, tear gas, heavy riot gear, rubber bullets and other less-than-lethal means of crowd control?

Interesting read that is what's up with the uk though an englishmans home is his castle until you paste said bad guy for trespassing then the old bill turn up at your castle not to pat you on the back but to arrest your ass me personally come in my home uninvited I will Fuck your shit up and take whatever punishment our judicial system can dole maybe that's why were not allowed guns lol

Sometimes I wonder about things like dictatorships and what places must have been like waaaaay back in the day. Please understand I don't mean dictatorship = Hitler here...

What I'm getting at is having that 1 single source of power who takes the city, nation etc as HIS or HER own personal property. They would also dispatch police but it would probably be like "keep looting, Imma gonna fuck you up"....

The big point I wonder is in regards to politics though (sorry, off topic?) and things like our Canadian long drawn out elections, politicians bashing other politicians. My chums to the south in the US might not have had that deficit crap dragged out where the 2 sides couldn't even put there "my party is better than yours" approach aside. No politics or sabotage attempts on each other saying "Side X or Y is uncooperative"...

Mr / Ms Dictator says "This is what we are doing. I listened to some advisers, it's a good plan and it took 1 day to cook up. You don't like it, go try to loot......"

My heart is close to the rioting as my entire family live in England and I was born there, albiet 32 years ago. I hope this can be resolved with as little violence as possible but Nate's analysis rings true that a few eggs might need to get cracked.

daveacus wrote:

Interesting read that is what's up with the uk though an englishmans home is his castle until you paste said bad guy for trespassing then the old bill turn up at your castle not to pat you on the back but to arrest your ass me personally come in my home uninvited I will Fuck your shit up and take whatever punishment our judicial system can dole maybe that's why were not allowed guns lol

What's odd (or ironic, depending on how you look at it) is that many states in the US (including the one I live in, Missouri), have what we call the Castle Doctrine drawn from Sir Edward Coke statement "A man’s house is his castle". Essentially, anyone inside a house without their permission can be subdued and/or killed , justifiably.

Additionally, I'm able to defend myself and loved ones with lethal force (if necessary) anywhere I am legally entitled to be be that in my driveway or at the supermarket.

That said, I hope I never have to do that due to the impact it would have on my loved ones lives, not to mention the mental anguish and financial toll it would take during the court process.

BigDaddyN8 wrote:

I have been on the military enforcment side of riot control. When mob mentality takes over those involved no longer listen or can be dealt with reasonably. They get caught up in the mob energy and feel that they are anonymous (incorrectly so) and concern for others goes out the window. The only way of dealing with a mob and breaking its back is with Draconian measures that force those in the mob to reasses their personal safety. If you can make an individual fear for their life they become just that; an individual. Then the mob mentality is broken. Unfortunatetly, to make that omelet you have to break some eggs, and I don't think the police are up to it from what our UK clannies are reporting. Guess the self policing aspect of the neighborhood who are not constricted by PC or regulations or the iron fist of the military is what is needed. Just my .02

I feel for all of our fellow mortals in this time(not the problem makers)...N8 u ready I think u and I can get sum things done over there..but we will require FULL IMMUNITY!!!....ANd oh yes EGGS will be broken!! I truly hate that UK's gov will not allow them to defend themselves correctly..I protect my home with 4 things... 1. Greman Shepard(female - more aggressive protecting the wife and kids) 2. Pitbull(male - protection for me) 3. My wife carries a Glock .380 4. I carry a Glock .40 these things help to insure my family stays safe and my 9 year old girl has been learning to shoot and properly handle the .380 and is getting very good at grouping her shots..my son uses a bow he is 7 ...the only other thing I use is a decal on all the windows and on both doors that reads the following...

@ Daveacus. There is a policy and law known as "The castle Doctrine" in the United States. It varies from state to state so I highly recommend checking with your local authorities and lawyer regarding it if you are interested is seeing if you have a castle doctrine in your state. Free legal advice from the internet is often incorrect and worth exactly what you paid for it. (nothing) Lethal force is authorized to protect youself, individuals, and property in certain states and you are protected from any civil suits thay may arise from the incident.

Pennsylvaina just passed a Castle Doctrine.
"Introduced by state Representative Scott Perry (R-92), HB 40 would permit law-abiding citizens to use force, including deadly force, against an attacker in their home and any place outside of their home where they have a legal right to be. If enacted into law, it would also protect individuals from civil lawsuits by the attacker or the attacker’s family when force is used."

I think the attitudes in the article you presented MiiseterAnderson are a little disturbing. Mostly the idea that UK govt doesn't trust its citizens to safely carry firearms. Gun owners I know are characterized by putting responsibility and safety first and the 'cowboy' attitude they refer to is not the norm (from my experience). I live in SE Michigan in a very 'Red' county. I am learning that a surprising number of my friends carry. I considered carrying one when I was doing community work with teens in Detroit. I was in the worst of the worst neighborhoods and car jackings were commonish. I decided against it since I was going in and out of High Schools all day long and would have to lock the thing in a box; my client would likely see me do it and then my car becomes a target of theft and there is another illegal firearm in Detroit. *sigh* I had to rely on the hope that most strangers thought I was a cop (yes a kid from Iowa running around in Urban Detroit earns you some glances) and theraputic relationships I developed with families to keep me safe. I was granted "free hood pass" by one family and was assured that no one in the neighborhood would hurt me. I felt honored.

I cant imagine this kind of thing happening here. People would end up getting shot and they know it. I feel I am pretty progressive, and I dont feel that is byzantine at all. Expecting the police to be able to protect you in that moment is unrealistic. That is not meant to be disrespectful to police, but more a reflection of the reality of there is no police officer who can be to my house the second I need them there.

I was going to comment on the MI 'castle' law, but reading N8's post reminds me that I would likely be repeating something I am not positve is accurate.

I'm gonna steer clear of this post... I can almost hear the time bomb ticking, with such an emotive topic, huge cultural differences regarding law/arms/rights, and racist undercurrents brewing it's only a matter of time before we have another inter clan feud like the one I helped start while PSN was down

Oh and it doesn't help that on one hand I think society needs to educate, and help the underclass teens rioting. So they learn the value of a hard days work and gain some self worth/respect from earning their first honest wage packet. On the other hand I think let's just round em all up and burn them for fuel so they can give something back to the community.

Lets just say I'm conflicted!

Winicott1001 wrote:

I think the attitudes in the article you presented MiiseterAnderson are a little disturbing. Mostly the idea that UK govt doesn't trust its citizens to safely carry firearms.

There's a host of quotes that I have at my fingertips, however, I feel we're going down the slippery slope of a pro-gun vs anti-gun debate. Those typically end in a knock down drag out internet ego fight in which, invariably someone gets their e-feelings hurt.

So, I'll simply say that, historically, a government that has disarmed it's citizenry has done so to make them slaves, unable or at least greatly hindered their ability to rise up against oppression.

Winicott1001 wrote:

Gun owners I know are characterized by putting responsibility and safety first and the 'cowboy' attitude they refer to is not the norm (from my experience).

As is my experience. Due to the legal implication of a concealed carry, everyone that I know who carries, practices more often and are better read into the legal specifics than most, generally out of self-preservation.

Winicott1001 wrote:

I considered carrying one when I was doing community work with teens in Detroit. I was in the worst of the worst neighborhoods and car jackings were commonish. I decided against it since I was going in and out of High Schools all day long and would have to lock the thing in a box; my client would likely see me do it and then my car becomes a target of theft and there is another illegal firearm in Detroit. *sigh* I had to rely on the hope that most strangers thought I was a cop (yes a kid from Iowa running around in Urban Detroit earns you some glances) and theraputic relationships I developed with families to keep me safe. I was granted "free hood pass" by one family and was assured that no one in the neighborhood would hurt me. I felt honored.

That's tough choice. In MO you can ignore the no guns allowed signs without much legal retribution (a misdemeanor at worst, but man, you really have to work at it to get that). That said, your job sounds especially difficult to carry.

Winicott1001 wrote:

I cant imagine this kind of thing happening here. People would end up getting shot and they know it. I feel I am pretty progressive, and I dont feel that is byzantine at all. Expecting the police to be able to protect you in that moment is unrealistic. That is not meant to be disrespectful to police, but more a reflection of the reality of there is no police officer who can be to my house the second I need them there.

I expect people to be self-reliant to a certain extent. one can't expect another entity to protect their life and well being as well as they can. Just remember that when seconds count, the police are just minutes away (not a slam against LEOs, just a fact that they can't be everywhere at once).

It would be great if the world was filled with flowers, puppy dogs, and lollipops, but that fact of the matter is that there are some very evil people who can't be rehabilitated. The base question is how do you deal with that.

For me, it comes to this:
If I didn't do everything that I was legally capable of in the protection of my family, and one of them was hurt or killed; I would be unable to live with that personal failure. In the USA, thankfully, that's a personal choice. In other countries, they do not have those choices (from a legal perspective)

BigDaddyN8 wrote:

@ Daveacus. There is a policy and law known as "The castle Doctrine" in the United States. It varies from state to state so I highly recommend checking with your local authorities and lawyer regarding it if you are interested is seeing if you have a castle doctrine in your state. Free legal advice from the internet is often incorrect and worth exactly what you paid for it. (nothing) Lethal force is authorized to protect youself, individuals, and property in certain states and you are protected from any civil suits thay may arise from the incident.

Pennsylvaina just passed a Castle Doctrine.
"Introduced by state Representative Scott Perry (R-92), HB 40 would permit law-abiding citizens to use force, including deadly force, against an attacker in their home and any place outside of their home where they have a legal right to be. If enacted into law, it would also protect individuals from civil lawsuits by the attacker or the attacker’s family when force is used."

Interesting. Didn't know the name of this law. But have known it existed. IF anyone comes into to your house and tries to do you harm you have a right to defend yourself. I read an article where a guy was getting his home invaded and he actually chased them off and continued to chase after they had crossed the street and killed them. Now when he gets home he calls the cops. Cops arrive and arrest the home owner and charge him with a triple homicide. Why? : The official story was that once he chased them off of his property he was no longer in danger and should have let them go. In all honesty I would have did the same thing to protect my family. And yes this happened in vegas a few years ago. I was completely blown away by it.

JxVegas702 wrote:

I was completely blown away by it.

As my lawyer friend puts it:

Let a fleeing felon flee (if they are running away, LET THEM!)

xkillxfacex wrote:

I'm gonna steer clear of this post... I can almost hear the time bomb ticking, with such an emotive topic, huge cultural differences regarding law/arms/rights, and racist undercurrents brewing it's only a matter of time before we have another inter clan feud like the one I helped start while PSN was down

Oh and it doesn't help that on one hand I think society needs to educate, and help the underclass teens rioting. So they learn the value of a hard days work and gain some self worth/respect from earning their first honest wage packet. On the other hand I think let's just round em all up and burn them for fuel so they can give something back to the community.

Lets just say I'm conflicted!

I think people are trying o be respectful and sensitive to the exact thing you are sugesting. On a side note I think the debate we had when PSN was down was a good thing. We explored our own ideas and challenged others to stretch their own perceptions. As someone who I remeber being on the oppostie side of the last 'discussion' with you I can hoseslty say no long term damage has been done in my mind.

I thnk you have nailed the issue Killface. You are articulating what the roiters are not able to express effectively. Disinfranchised youth with little hope of improvement. The deepening disparity between the classes leads to the potential of this kind of thing. What is really sad is that there is no message, just people angry and have no idea why and a system, that until two days ago, was nearly powerless to stop it.

bad situation all around. Good luck UK.

Agreed. Killface and Wini summed it up very well. This tread is not pro-gun, anti-gun, pro-government, and anti-government and it will not become one! *puts big boy moderator pants on*. It was originally put up to enlighten clan members on what was occurring in the UK.

The last debate resulted in no hurt feelings that I am aware of. I can't even remember what it was all about, not that I care anymore. That is the nice part about being in an over 30 clan. All the posturing and chest pounding we did as adolescents and young adults has passed.

I respect all opinions regarding firearms or anything else for that matter.

I find for me the logic is simple. I'd rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it. Castle doctrine or not, I'm protecting my family and possessions by force if necessary. I'm willing to do time for the lives of my kids. If you trust the government to protect you, that's your right too. I don't.

I own a bunch of real estate rentals in poorer parts of Allentown, and I carry my .357 Taurus hammerless bodyguard special at all times. Only had to brandish it one time in 10 years and it had the desired effect. I believe the thug that was trying to part me from my wallet soiled himself.

How does that gun work w/o a hammer? Is it electric or something?

BigDaddyN8 wrote:

The last debate resulted in no hurt feelings that I am aware of. I can't even remember what it was all about, not that I care anymore.

I will refresh your memory N8.

Killface thinks manic as abducted by aliens and implanted by something and that explains his behavior. He also suggested that he may indeed be an alien, but favors the first idea and is using the second idea as a fallback position.

I asserted that it is likely that as a child he was held down by clowns and they forced him to watch human on animal porn while tickling him with a GI-Joe figurine dressed up in barbie clothes.

The debate was raging. Right before Killface and I came to blows PSN came back up and we went back to gaming.

The issue is still unresolved.

^^^^ ALOL ^^^^ I can't believe I missed it ^^^^^^^

Darling Wini...I'm more of a Star Wars figure kind of guy.

Dear Winipoo,

I'd say that was a harsh but fair summation of past events, however I thought we had a difference of opinion that was debated like grown ups. Unlike one fellow clannie who took great offence to me daring to voice a perspective that differed from his own. What ever happened to that guy? I don't think I've seen a post since his outburst.

Winicott1001 wrote:

How does that gun work w/o a hammer? Is it electric or something?

It's in internal hammer. Still works the same as a regular revolver, just doesn't have an external hammer to get caught on clothing (better for concealed carry).

MiiisterAnderson wrote:

Winicott1001 wrote:

How does that gun work w/o a hammer? Is it electric or something?

It's in internal hammer. Still works the same as a regular revolver, just doesn't have an external hammer to get caught on clothing (better for concealed carry).

Isn't more fun when you can cock the hammer it's time for action

^^^ I love this guy...

^^^ I'm very fond of you too x

so driving into work this morning NPR/BBC has a story that the UK PM wants to take away the subsidized housing from those charged in the riots...kicking them out of the Council Estates. I'm all for punishisng these asses fucking over their own neighborhoods but doesn't making them homeless just add kerosine to the fire?

If kerosine is a highly flammable liquid then yes