Speaking of guns....

I am in the market of a rifle. Just for plinking around at the range and for home defense. I am not a noob to guns, but i have always just been a handgun man(i have several). So i want to jump into the rifle world.

I am thinking of a semi-auto(please, no bolt action or fully auto). Probably a .308 / NATO 7.62mm caliber something or other. I realize that it would cost more to play around with as far as ammo than say a .22 cal something, but i am not worried about cost of ammo.

I want a decent and reliable beginner type rifle if that is even a reality. One that would last a long time if given the care and handling that guns should get.

X-Runner wrote:

I am in the market of a rifle. Just for plinking around at the range and for home defense. I am not a noob to guns, but i have always just been a handgun man(i have several). So i want to jump into the rifle world.

I am thinking of a semi-auto(please, no bolt action or fully auto). Probably a .308 / NATO 7.62mm caliber something or other. I realize that it would cost more to play around with as far as ammo than say a .22 cal something, but i am not worried about cost of ammo.

I want a decent and reliable beginner type rifle if that is even a reality. One that would last a long time if given the care and handling that guns should get.

Plinking & Home defense are two different requirements, IMHO. That said, if I could only buy one rifle for both, I'd buy an AR w/ a 22 conversion kit (or dedicated upper if you can swing it). This gives you a short carbine for HD and the ability to plink with 22. A solid AR will run $800+

In 7.62, the FAL is a solid, simple, and reliable rifle. I had a STG-58 from DSA until I found that I shot the M1A much better. The FAL will run about $1K+ new, the M1A $1.2K+ . Both are entirely too long for effective and fast HD, IMHO.

If you've got $1500 to spend, pick up an AR and an remington 870 for the best of both worlds.

All prices are starting points and will vary with brand and features.

Rifles are not the most ideal home defense weapons for several reasons. Think about any engagement inside your home...max shooting distance is probably 30 feet. Then there's the possibility of accidentally shooting a child through the walls. If a bad guy comes up the stairs in my house, my direct line of fire toward advancing intruder is aiming directly at my 1 year old's crib.

With a rifle of any caliber, it's going right thru any drywall and pine studs...same with a powerful handgun like a .357 or .45. I highly recommend considering a shotgun for home defense. And load it with low brass birdshot (size 6 max). At 10 yards, the pattern on a modified barrel will give you a nice spread and plenty of lead on target to drop someone. It may not be a mortal wound, but there's no way they are advancing towards you with any strength left to fight.

PLUS, you won't penetrate 2 layers of 3/8" drywall with lethal force. And if someone gets in your house, likely at night, are you going to be able to hit a running target with a rifle? While startled?

For range plinking, there are many great options, AR styles are nice, but pricey. AK variants are inexpensive ($500) and a ton of fun. Plus they are virtually maintenance free if you're shooting non-corrosive ammo. The gun I have the most fun with right now is my Ruger 10-22. I take the wife, and my son and we'll shoot 1000 rounds easy. Super cheap 22 ammo, and so insanely accurate. Dime sized groups at 200 yards, which is as long as I've ever tried to shoot with it. Not a lethal killing machine, but a really fun gun for plinking.

X-runner, I know you're not a gun noob, but perhaps others are reading this and have questions about home defense. The best advice I could give anyone considering options for home defense is this: Average burglars don't rob people when they are home. If someone breaks into your home while you are there, they are prepared to do you harm, so be ready. Most likely a junkie with no regards for consequences of action. If possible, gather your brood into one room and camp with your weapon of choice (gun, golf club, frying pan) just inside the door. Call 911 and wait it out. If they breach your door, shoot to kill. You'll want to make sure they are dead too...you're less likely to be sued.

Best option is security system, dog AND gun. You can never be too prepared. Then you don't have to worry about calling the cops.

I posted up a long winded post last night after reading this, but I went to add some links and ended up deleting my post before I could send it.

I strongly, strongly discourage you from a 7.62 X51 NATO (.308 Winchester) if your primary goals are plinking and home defense. This round excells at neither of your requirements. Long rifle is a very, very poor home defense weapon and the velocity, penetration, and terminal ballistics result in that round going tru someone, multiple walls, and right on going. Very bad JuJu if you have others in the house or neighbors. I know you mentioned that ammo cost was not an issue, but 7.62X51 is very, very pricey for just plinking. 600 rounds of military surplus (which is the best plinking ammo you can get) will run close to $100.

Those two caveats being said there are some excellent weapons chambered in the 7.62. In the world of firearms you can have two of the following three: accurate, dependable, and cheap. Anything that is worth a shit that you will be able to give to your grandchildren are cheap. I am not sure if you are looking at a gas gun M4 clone such as the Armalite AR10, Rock River Arms LAR-8, or DPMS Panther. Any one of the three will set you back around 1200-1300$ for a base model. You still have to add optics, and to fully maximize the selling point of the 7.62 (range) you need to invest in quality optics so thats another 600$ at the minimum. If you are looking at the DSA FAL or M14 style platforms you are still going to dropping >1000 on a decent one and then chasing Magazines, add-on, and optics. I would plan on dropping @2000$ into a 7.62 chassis if you go that route.

Again, the 7.62 platform does not sound like it meets your goals. An AR-15 platform is a great plinker, especially with a dedicated upper 22lr so you can switch it up. To meet your two requirements I would recommend a good 12ga shotgun and a Ruger 10/22. Then you have 2 weapons that both excell in their respective classes of home defense and plinking. You should be able to get both weapons for $600-700 depending on what extras you through on, ie a 1-4 X scope for the 22lr and a tac light for the shotgun. Hope the info helps.

Archangel 5 out.

In another lifetime, in a universe far, far away I used to work at the Sturm Ruger factory in Newport, NH. The 10/22 series of rifles are solidly built by a great team of American workers that take pride in their workmanship...

A fun fact about working there (at least back in the early nineties), was that after six months they gave you a free semi-auto .22 pistol...

But back to the thread topic...as noted above a shotgun w/a tactical light is your best home defense weapon, better than a handgun IMHO. I am former military (not anywhere close to N8's experience though) and wouldn't want to use an AR at night in a house. I keep a 12 gauge shotgun for that and a 9 mm to carry concealed (I do a lot of foreclosure work and sometimes run up against some emotional if not crazy people, never had to even draw it out of my back holster, but it is comforting to know it is there).

I would love to get either an AK of AR-15 next for the ranage and zombie killing

I do be amazed when I read your gun topics. America is a crazy place.

No way would I live there.

You guys going on about handguns and shotguns etc for home defence is mad. I live in a world where I feel totaly safe at home or work or on the streets. I do almost feel sorry for you that you have to go to those lenghts to feel safe.

Most of us are paranoid, plus we loves guns. you never know when the government will use mind control weapons on the populace, the zombie outbreak will occur, or the white Sox will win the world series. Any one of those things will cause all hell to break loose.

Guns are a blast to shoot. There is a zen like quality and a very, very high level of meditation and concentration required when attempting to get a small 150 grain projetile to hit a target at 1 Km. I find that a deep concentration and forcing my heart and breathing to slow have great relaxing qualities that carry over into everyday stresses, plus it always puts a smile on my face to see/hear a steel target go clang at a long distance.

franread5 wrote:

I do be amazed when I read your gun topics. America is a crazy place.

No way would I live there.

You guys going on about handguns and shotguns etc for home defence is mad. I live in a world where I feel totaly safe at home or work or on the streets. I do almost feel sorry for you that you have to go to those lenghts to feel safe.

Don't rely on stereotypes. That would be like assuming all Brits are meek pacifists who get stripped naked in broad daylight by rioting welfare thugs at the slightest threat of physical force.

fucilli_jerry wrote:

franread5 wrote:

I do be amazed when I read your gun topics. America is a crazy place.

No way would I live there.

You guys going on about handguns and shotguns etc for home defence is mad. I live in a world where I feel totaly safe at home or work or on the streets. I do almost feel sorry for you that you have to go to those lenghts to feel safe.

Don't rely on stereotypes. That would be like assuming all Brits are meek pacifists who get stripped naked in broad daylight by rioting welfare thugs at the slightest threat of physical force.

They are!

Not like us Irish. We are mad fuckers.

franread5 wrote:

I do be amazed when I read your gun topics. America is a crazy place.

No way would I live there.

You guys going on about handguns and shotguns etc for home defence is mad. I live in a world where I feel totaly safe at home or work or on the streets. I do almost feel sorry for you that you have to go to those lenghts to feel safe.

Gun carriers, In my experience, are the kind of people like the ones you read about on here. They are serious about gun safety and the responsibilty of carrying something that is so dangerous. I have yet to meet a meverick gun carrier and I know surprisingly high number of them. The attitude is "Dont pull your gun unless you need to kill someone". They dont pull it out just to stop arguements over parking spaces and the like.

Most who carry wont come up and tell you they carry either. Attracting attention about your firearm is not really part of the deal.

I feel mostly safe at work, but I am a community based therapist, so I am in people's homes. When I worked in Metro Detroit 4 of the 5 days a week I wished I had a firearm. I chose not to push for one since I was in and out of court and schools all day long. I didn't want to have to lock it up every time I went into a school in front of a client (most of which had criminal history). I witnessed a shooting and had a gun pulled on me while working that job. Good times....

I can also attest to the mental exercise it takes to fire a gun properly. It is rewarding and relaxing i a way. You have to focus your mind and your body to get the gun to do what you want it to do. I can see how there is a Zen like aspect to it.

In america we shoot guns. In fran world you roll over cars on film. By the way where is your latest Fran Scrap Yard Antics vid? Those were sweet.

I never need a gun to feel safe. But I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I roll thru the hood regularly to check on properties, and there are lots of baseheads squatting in vacant buildings I check out. Most of the time they run out the back door when you go in the front, but I don't want to look like an easy score to someone strung out on crack either.

It's not like you think it is Fran...it's not the wild west with people flashing pieces over insults. There are definitely gangland problems with gun violence, but they are generally just killing each other, so I'm fine with that.

They day they outlaw guns is the day only outlaws have guns.

We wear our seatbelts because we might have an automobile accident
We have fire extinguishers in our house in case there's a fire.
We have spare tires in our cars in case we get a flat.
I carry a gun because there are dark and evil rats of the two legged kind who wish only to hurt their fellow (wo)man.

If any of those situations occur during my short lifetime, I aim to be equally prepared.

I like that Anderson...in fact I had a similar conversation with my life just a few weeks ago. I have been wanting to upgrade my old full stock 12 gauge to a tactical Mossberg setup, her response was that I would never need it for home defense.

My response was that it was insurance, just like the fire insurance on the house; hope that I will never have to use either one, but if I did we would be glad we had it!

P.S. It didn't work, I still have the old 12 gauge...I am hoping to simply wear her down over time

Trust me Fran I know. I'm Irish descent with an Irish Catholic half of the family. I like to drink, feel guilty, and then get mad, in that order

Where I grew up though the only home invaders were maybe a black bear that busted in your screen door. Then I moved to the DC/VA/MD area and home invader actually means someone who kicks in your door. Mostly for drugs or money or a gang initiation (we have a big MS13 and 18th Street Gang problem in N. Virginia). It all depends on WHERE you live in the US.

I've been in verbal altercations with people while carrying, and trust me, I never considered pulling out my weapon. As a matter of fact, it was over a parking space, and I actually ceded my position and left because I wanted to de-escalate the situation. The guy was a total asshat. He gets to keep living, and I get to stay out of court.

I don't carry when I'm running out for pizza or going to visit friends. I DO carry when I go to the gym (where someone was just robbed in the parking lot), or when I go to certain certain parts of town. I don't have kids yet, so I keep my 1911 in my nightstand. When I do have kids, I will lock it in my barometric safe with my Glock and XD. My deer shotgun is unloaded and the slugs in my other safe.

Remember, we have over a quarter billion people living here. And lots of the shitty ones stick together. I fully expect to go the rest of my life without pulling, or using, my firearms. But I'd rather have it and not need it than vice versa. And having to take blood thinners for the rest of my life doesn't help. I rely on my size for to not get marked for being a victim. But if I get cut or stomped, I better get medical assistance in MINUTES or I might be a dead man. That means defending myself by any means possible.

I don't think they can outlaw guns there as a practical matter never mind the outcry and possible civil war that might occur.

I think as an outsider that proliferation is the reason you need to have your guns for the reasons given above. Just like India has nuclear weapons so in turn Pakistan has em too. Problem is while India is unlikely to use them there are people like Pakistan who legally hold there weapon and can access the trigger too easily and do a lot of damage in seconds.

And for the record I enjoy shooting as much as being devils advocate and stirring things a bit.

I have used 9 mm semi auto, .22 pistols, .22 rifles and shotguns.

they did outlaw "assault" weapons back in '94, when I was in high school and living in NJ, which is quite nearly a communist state. That law cost Clinton his Congress, and reminded the Democrats that if you fuck with us, you won't win an election for dogcatcher.

Criminals will always get their hands on weapons to give them an edge. IF guns are magically wiped from the face of the earth, they'll have knives and swords and will keep taking all they can. It won't ever stop.


I love the expression: "God made men, but Samuel Colt made them equal."

I have a DPMS LR.308 and love this gun, great for deer and hogs, 20 rnd mags and a 4-14 scope. Heavy as hell 24" stainless bull barrel and is great for its purpose but a hallclearer it is not, for me even a 16" would be too much for inside the house. I will also say that I usually feel safe but I also try to take steps to avoid trouble, thats the key. But for insurance I am never very far from something for defense, paronoid maybe, but I was a boyscout so I like to think of it as "Always be prepaired". I am with most of the others as a scattergun is your best bet for home defense and a .22 for plinking can both be had for less than most .308 semi-autos out there.

I was handling this when I went to pick up my Ruger...this thing is SWEET and may be my next purchase (maybe next year after my wife recovers from the SR1911's sticker shock) lol

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=GM436459&pdesc=Stoeger_Double_Defense_Shotgun&aID=510D4&merchID=4006

I LOVE side by sides...one of the only guns missing from my shotgun arsenal. I'm a big bird/duck/small game hunter, so shotties are my thing.

I have the nice over/under, several autos, a 3 1/2 waterfowler, etc, but I really want a side by side. Preferably a 16 gauge Italian made, which will require some coin, but it's a legacy gun. Something so natural about looking down the double barrel with both eyes open. Break opens are the epitome of safe handling weapons too...my son's first was a single shot 20 gauge break open.

I'd actually like to find an old drilling gun, which is a side by side 12 gauge with a .22LR on top...but they are rare and expensive. The Cabela's near me has a gun library with many nice vintage shotguns...I go there and drool often. Mrs. FBD does not share my enthusiasm for such things.

FBD wrote:

I LOVE side by sides...one of the only guns missing from my shotgun arsenal. I'm a big bird/duck/small game hunter, so shotties are my thing.

I have the nice over/under, several autos, a 3 1/2 waterfowler, etc, but I really want a side by side. Preferably a 16 gauge Italian made, which will require some coin, but it's a legacy gun. Something so natural about looking down the double barrel with both eyes open. Break opens are the epitome of safe handling weapons too...my son's first was a single shot 20 gauge break open.

I'd actually like to find an old drilling gun, which is a side by side 12 gauge with a .22LR on top...but they are rare and expensive. The Cabela's near me has a gun library with many nice vintage shotguns...I go there and drool often. Mrs. FBD does not share my enthusiasm for such things.

My Dad's giving me his old Sears 12 gauge s-b-s, and I already have the old 20-guage over-under Davide Pedersoli he mainly used. He took down many deer with that 20 and slugs. I'll probably use it instead of a rifle when I start hunting again here in Virginia.

Was it a JC Higgins? That was the Sears brand name for all their outdoor gear until the 70s. I hunted with an old timer when I was a kid that used a beat up JC Higgins 30-06 and a cheap Tasco 3x scope. That old bugger must have killed 50+ deer with that rig. He just sat near the truck while the rest of us Young Guns stomped off into the hills. We'd come back at dark and he'd be sitting there smoking a pipe with a big ass buck laying there.