Speaking of guns....

FBD wrote:

I love when handgun snobs argue that 9mm is an ineffective round...tell that to Seal Team 6. I wonder if Bin Laden thought of that when a 9mm from a Seal MP5K was passing thru his cranium.

<---carries a 9mm

9mm through a 3-4" barrel carries about 35% less energy than through an MP5K with a 6-
9" barrel. Then there's the whole semi-automatic versus fully automatic debate.

Any cartridge can be made more or less effective, depending on the carriage it's deployed from.

Two words. Shot placement. That is all.

No its not.
<---------------- Also carries 9mm as everyday pocket concealed carry. Carries .45 when traveling to Portland or any other crazy infested subdivision of Oregon. carries .45 and .308 assault rifle when 4X4 ing in the woods as coming accross meth trailers and pot farms is pretty common.

Some pretty interesting data on some popular calibers...

Clicky

If you don't include rifles and shotguns, all calibers have pretty much the same results. .22 even tied for the highest percentage of fatal shots.

The reason I decided to go with 9mm over .357/.40/.45 was the cost of ammo and knowing that it will always be available somewhere. I didn't see the point of having a 45 and not being able to shoot it at the range because I couldn't afford the ammo.

Train like you fight... fight like you train.

MiiisterAnderson wrote:

ImGoodIfYouSuck wrote:

For about $600, depending on the gun store, you can get an AR chambered in .22lr

This your best bet because when you want to plink the ammo is about $20 for a brick of 500 rounds. THEN for home defense you can buy an "upper" in a larger caliber, assemble in seconds, and BOOM- instant Robber Stopping Power

To clear there are 22LR's in AR bodies (M&P 15-22, etc). These cannot be upgraded with an upper for 5.56/.223 duty.

If one purchases an AR in 5.56/.223, they can then 1) buy a 22LR conversion kit (bolt and magazine) or 2) buy a dedicated 22LR upper and switch back and forth between the two calibers.

At my local gun shop they have an AR chambered in .22 that is 100% interchangeable with other upper receivers. So if you wanted 5.56, 7.62, 308 etc. it takes only a few seconds. I actually plan on making this my next purchase after a 12guage

ImGoodIfYouSuck wrote:

At my local gun shop they have an AR chambered in .22 that is 100% interchangeable with other upper receivers. So if you wanted 5.56, 7.62, 308 etc. it takes only a few seconds. I actually plan on making this my next purchase after a 12guage

Then it sounds like they have a regular AR with one of the two options I outlined above. MY point was you can't buy a dedicated 22LR (like the M&P 15-22) and convert THAT to run 5.56.

You can run a 7.62x39 AR upper, but they don't get good reviews (seen them jam relentlessly, personally). The 7.62x51 (308) is too large and won't run in the smaller 5.56 chassis. The 6.8SPC, 300AAC (or Blackout), and the 50 Beowulf are the largest cartridges you can run on the small 5.56 lower receiver.

i love the stopping power factions I can't argue with shot placement and capcity and cost of the 9mm. Having them hollowpoints is a must.

But if I ever need more than the 8 JHP rounds in my .45, that means I'm either in an episode of "Hunter" with Fred Dryer, or it's time to run or hide LOL

This is primarily for N8 or any other vets:

Curiosity-Do Seal Team 6 and other elite Special Forces units abide by Geneva/Hague Convention rules of engagement requiring the use of FMJ or non-expanding/explosive ammo? I would think all bets are off in a case like Bin Laden. Hollow points all the way. Anyone know the answer to this?

Being that I never served, I have no idea what ammo is used in specific circumstances.

short answer: Yes. They are professional soldiers that live and die by the warriors code. That includes adhearing to the laws of war as mandated by the laws we have sworn to uphold. Do counter terrorism units ie Seal Team 6 ever run hollow points, I think they do, but I have never worked with team 6 so I can't say for certain. Facing a group of terrorists that are not a formalized nation with no standing army, nor uniform is considered a police action and not a war. A war and a police action look the same, sound the same, and the costs are the same, but an anti terrorism team facing terrorists would not be bound by the laws of war since the terrorists are not a nation. I am specualting here, as I am not a military attorney. I have known soldiers that slipped JHP into their mags on the battlefield and consequently were serverely punished for violating standing laws and regulations. Dishonorable discharge and they were lucky to escape with no prison time.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't think of it that way, but since they are a group of nationless terrorists I guess anything goes. Good to know. I want our boys to be using whatever deals the most damage in taking out those farking inhuman nutjobs.

What about mercs like Blackwater? Or for-hire protection of civilian contractors? Same rules apply to them in a warzone?

Nope. Mercs are not a "national army" hence they do not have to abide by the laws of war nor the Hauge convention. Shoot first, ask questions second is the rule of the day as a merc. Had a few run ins with them in Iraq. They had a completely different ROE (rules of engagement) than we did. Thats why mercs get hired. They can get the dirty jobs done quickly becuase they answer only to the highest bidder and not congressional inquiry, oversight, or the laws of war. Trying to charge a merc is ridiculously difficult as the governement of the nation that the mercs are working in are usually busy fighting a full fledged war and trying to avoid being thrown out of power. they are the only ones that can charge and try mercs under their national laws and courts, but they are so busy they don't have the ability, manpower, or desire to prosecute foreign mercenaries. Remember the story of the hotels I shared earlier and how they created early warning systems by simply shooting anyone in the vicinity when an attack occured. Not a single one ever was charged or faced any consequences for gunning down unarmed civilians.

Perhaps we're headed towards the Metal Gear Solid 4 scenario of all private military contractors...scary to think of.

nah. Standing armies loyal to the crown are necessary to maintain a sovereignty when fighting over resources. (Almost every war boils down to fighting over resoures of one kind or another and occasionally a woman) Mercenaries are the second oldest profession in the history of man, (prostitution is the first) and they have been used in almost every conflict in recorded history. It is always dangerous to employ mercenaries as they have no allegience and can be bought by the highest bidder. There are many instances of mercenaries working for once crown and being paid off and turning on their former employer. that fact alone will keep countries always attempting to maintain a standing army.

If you wish to continue this discussion a second thread will work, as this subject is getting away from the original posting aobut guns.

So, speaking of guns...

Or, slightly about guns at least. What would be the benefit to get a CCW? I check my county website and I seem to need a reason to get a CCW. Someone mentioned it would be easier to transport if I had a CCW. Just wondering if that would be worth the hassle?

Correct...back on topic.

A friend of mine was killed last week by his own weapon. Unfortunately this is a true story. His estranged wife broke into his house at 4am, and proceeded to put 6 rounds into him while he slept. She apparently stole the .40 from him previously, and he had no idea.

She fled with 2 of their 4 kids and was captured at a local airport.

Today she was officially charged with Murder 1, burglary and theft. The State will seek the Death Penalty.

Link to article if interested

I coached 2 of his boys in several sports for many years and he was our team videographer for several years in football.

The point of me posting this is to remind EVERYONE reading this to secure their weapons at all times. It's impossible to know if she would have found another weapon, but it is at least something to ponder. Perhaps if a weapon was less available to her, she would have found committing the act too problematic.

walldoggy wrote:

So, speaking of guns...

Or, slightly about guns at least. What would be the benefit to get a CCW? I check my county website and I seem to need a reason to get a CCW. Someone mentioned it would be easier to transport if I had a CCW. Just wondering if that would be worth the hassle?

Personal Protection is all the reason you need.

DO NOT check "business" as they can issue a conditional permit. Personal Protection is unconditional, and yes, it means you can carry it loaded and concealed in your vehicle. If not, you'll need to keep it in a case, unloaded, and store the ammo separately. It varies state-state though.

Man FBD... that's heinous! I'm sorry for your loss. Thoughts and prayers go out to the children.

Walldawg... California is a "May Issue" state. Do some research on your specific county as to how many permits get issued. Each permit has to be approved and you have to have "good cause". To get approved in most counties, you need to prove that you're in some kind of danger (having a restraining order, work travel, transport money/jewelry...). Some counties don't issue any permits, some issue them readily. I've heard Kern and San Bernardino have issued them on "personal protection" alone.

yes, CA is a May issue state and that can cause some difficulty in obtaining a permit. Personal protection is great to CCW, but the real benefit from my CHL is it allows me to hide firearms out of plain sight while transporting them in a vehicle and I don't have to dork around with keeping ammo locked seperatly from firearms or unloading magazines while traveling. Plus it makes purchasing a firmarm a hell of a lot easier. Some states have a wait period, some do not, some waive the waiting period if you have a CHL. Not sure if CA has a waiting period for handguns (probably) and if a CHL will waive the waiting time.

So this is from the Orange County (where I live) website on CCW:

Quote :

Good Cause: Applicants must establish that good cause exists to support a request for a license to carry a concealed weapon. Criteria that may establish good cause include the following:

• Specific evidence that there has been or is likely to be an attempt on the part of a second party to do great bodily harm to the applicant.
  
  
• The nature of the business or occupation of the applicant is such that it is subject to high personal risk and / or criminal attack, far greater risk than the general population.
  
  
• A task of the business or occupation of the applicant requires frequent transportation of large sums of money or other valuables and alternative protective measures or security cannot be employed.
  
  
• When a business or occupation is of a high-risk nature and requires the applicant’s presence in a dangerous environment.
  
  
• The occupation or business of the applicant is such that no means of protection, security or risk avoidance can mitigate the risk other than the carrying of a concealed firearm.
  
  
• Personal protection is warranted to mitigate a threat to the applicant that the applicant is able to substantiate.

Note: These examples are not intended to be all-inclusive – they are provided merely for your reference. Also, state and local laws do not prohibit an adult from having a concealed weapon in their home or place of business.

Also, I can transport a gun, as long as the:

Quote :

Firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container. The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment.

My friend that went to the gun show with me said you can have magazine and ammunition in the same case as the gun, the gun just needs to be unloaded. HOWEVER, there is often confusion and misconceptions with these laws, even with law enforcement, so it's good practice to separate into separate locked containers anyways.

I would hope the CCW would allow one to get around this a little, but I don't think I'd be approved for one anyways since I don't fall into any of those categories.

WOW...way to complicated. I'm happy I live in Florida in this regard.

You breathing? Any Felonies? No...ok then here's a Carry Permit...have a nice day.

Alaska, Arizona, Vermont, and Wyoming are even less complicated as you don't even need a permit. I guess that's why their crime rates are so high, huh?

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

And I'll be one of them.

virginia's similar. We have open carry, state preemption, and shall-issue ccw. We also don't have stand-alone bars, I think in order to have a bar in your establishment 60% of your revenue must come from food sales. So when they passed the CCW law, the Democrats got away with banning CCW holders from carrying in "bars." Which basically meant if you went out for dinner, you couldn't carry, since every restaurant here has a bar except McDonalds.

Law got passed last year allowing CCW in restaurants finally, as long as you don't drink AT ALL. Democrats and Brady Zombies had that old cry of "BLOOD IN THE STREETS, BLOOD IN THE STREETS, WILD WEST, DRUNK COWBOYS!"

Year later? Crime rates in and near restaurants with bars is lower (think it was somewhere around 5% but i'm not sure). The ATF is committing more gun crimes than licensed carriers.

So my friend wants to take me to this show. It looks freakin' AWESOME!



Oh and I'm going with him next week to a range to try out some of his guns: Sig 226, Glock 34 and Springfield XD, and maybe an HK. He has the Beretta 92FS, but I don't think he shoots with it anymore.

Great. Shoot them all, a few mags each at least so you can Lear the feel. Hope his HK is a p30, but the USP a smooth shooting too. Hope you find the perfect fit. I

walldoggy I can level some threats that I'm about to do great bodily harm to you with my throwing knife so that you can get a permit...they don't need to know that I can't throw from MN to CA...

Went and shot my father-in-law's Baby Eagle .45 yesterday along with my XD .45. The Baby Eagle is way heavier but they shoot pretty much the same. I hit the same grouping with both guns. Guess it's really down to technique than the gun as long as they're similar enough. I went from shooting 5 in groups with the .45's to playing with my mom's Walther P22 and it was funny that I was getting 10" groupings with the .22 Oops! Guess I've just been shooting .45's for so long that the .22 threw me off bad! Talk about embarrassed!